Frank Leyland:
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The link (under the picture) is to an article discussing the anger the Wiccan community has over a beer label that depicts a 16th century witch burning. I am sick and tired of having to listen to small groups of people complain about nothingness that I am seriously considering moving to the Mariana Trench. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_Trench
I get that we live in a PC world (or country at least, no need to lump North Korea in with us) where we constantly try to understand others points of view. And, in fairness, I think this is a very noble idea that demonstrates high level social behaviors, the most notable of which is compassion. However, we have ventured so fair into understanding that we, as a society, now reside in the realm of compliance. We are literally forced to support everyone’s thoughts and ideas no matter how inane or insane they are. We have forgotten that you can understand where someone is coming from and still tell them they are wrong. Sucking someone’s dick for every asinine opinion they have doesn't make you compassionate, it makes you a whore. Incidentally, it makes them, fat, lazy, and overly self-assured, which encourages even more absurdity... leading, of course, to more BJs.
Look, you can go ahead and believe in witchcraft, I'm cool with that. In fact you can go ahead and believe in anything you like as long as it doesn't involve throwing virgins into volcanoes or pouring good wine down the drain (there are too few of both). But you can't have way outside the box beliefs and then expect me to take you seriously. That is the compromise. I leave you be to wander around in the fantasy land that is your mind, and you don't force me to listen to you. When you start spouting off your demented ideas you have broken the treaty, so don't expect me to nod my head and pretend I think you are logical.
James McClure:
Well here we go, off into topics that have the potential to alienate giant chunks of our audience. While losing the Wiccan community is hardly a problem, the core issues here are far-reaching and split our country nearly in half. The fringe of both sides look like idiots in the extremes, but in the middle there is a lot of philosophy, emotion, and misunderstanding.
The battle for respect for other cultures is not a new topic and is likely discussed and argued so frequently because it is both nearly impossible to achieve and is at the bedrock foundation of our nation and its goals. Further, this difficult topic has forever been caught in the middle of a war of words. A war where semantics are everything and actual discussion is not only discouraged, but often placed somewhere out-of-bounds. These issues exist in a number of areas (typically: ethnicity, religion, gender, and sexual orientation). Each of these topics presents issues and road-blocks that are caused by misunderstanding, emotion, lack of empathy, hate, and fear. Many of the underlying issues are considered so taboo that you can't even discuss them, and many politically minded people like that because it creates layers of signaling, coded language, passive-aggressive stances, and stalemate. You don't have to look too far. Catch-phrases like "family values", "urban decay", "progressive", "educated" and a list of others that can be heard daily on CNN, FOX News, and MSNBC are caught-up in this battle. I would typically avoid a topic like this, but if we are going to take it on, let's take it on.
While the Wiccan community seems to be crazy, remember that they are living in a culture where most people believe that a man lives in the sky. That he knocked-up a virgin who gave birth to a son, which is actually him. That he created all of existence in a short run of thousands of years. That he buried fake dinosaur bones to make us doubt and test our faith, and that he will return with his pet ghost to destroy all of creation and take the "true believers" body and soul into the sky to live in his big cloud house. Religious persecution is real and while you don't have to respect the Wiccan outrage over beer bottle art, you do have to listen to it.
Talking about the Wiccan outrage over negative portrayals of their religion is not a simple issue that can easily be seen as ridiculous. While it seems to be nonsense, how would we feel if the label referenced the Spanish Inquisition, Holocaust, Slavery, The Trail of Tears, or another atrocity carried out upon a group by a majority? In the end I don't see why our view of this depiction is different simply because Wiccans are a smaller, more fringe population.
Frank Leyland:
First, where did this side of James McClure come from? Looks like the week long plague you just survived took all the fight and anger out of you. I might like this guy better, but you are coming dangerously close to turning our argument into a hippy-style love-fest.
I agree that it is a bad idea to glorify atrocities of the past, no matter the number of people affected. In this particular situation, however, there are several reasons why we should tell the Wiccans to shut the fuck up. First, the last witch burning on record occurred in 1693, so we are approximately 16 generations removed from the depicted event. I can assure you no one alive today (of non-witch decent) was also present in Salem in 1692, so let’s stop pretending this is anything other than a historical event. Besides, I thought it was good to be reminded of awful things society has done in the past (e.g. Slavery, Inquisitions, a Paris Hilton reality show) so we don’t repeat them.
Second, none of the 13 women who were burned were witches. If they were they would have failed the flame test. The fact that a bunch of witches are defending the memory of a group of women who were falsely accused of, and killed for, being a witch is not only ironic, it is insulting to their memory. They died because you assholes believe in witchcraft, something they, themselves, did not believe.
Finally, and probably most relevant, the label makes no claim as to the correctness of witch burning. If the label had a title like: "A burned witch a day keeps the doctor away" or "I love the smell of burned witch in the morning", then yes, it might be inappropriate (although it would also be funnier). As it is this label is simply a piece of art. And as we all learned in 2nd grade, and relearned while walking through a post-modern 'art' exhibit, the meaning of art is in the eye of the beholder. So anyone who looks at this label and wants to burn some people was already mentally deranged.
James McClure:
I think that we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I'd be hesitant to purchase this beer just as I would be hesitant to purchase a bottle of wine with a stylized swastika on it, or eat at a restaurant that referenced slavery images in its title, or buy a car with a dying Jesus on the hood. It's just not necessary or appropriate.
I think that you don't respect Wiccans' beliefs, so you think that you don't have to respect their feelings and rights. How would you feel if over 70% of the people in this country were Wiccans? What if it was a large minority; like Mormans? What then? How willing would you be to offend them?
It's just a better policy to err on the side of reverence when you are dealing with or referencing someone's religion.
Frank Leyland:
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Your absolutely right that I don't respect their beliefs, but I do respect their rights to have those beliefs. That is a huge distinction. I had no problem with the Wiccan community until they started bitching about a label on a seasonal beer made by a microbrewery that currently distributes to parts of 8 states
Yes, I get that the label might not be politically correct, but it's just a painting. Are you suggesting we remove everything from or society that makes mention of witches and the burning thereof? I don't want to live in a world where this clip doesn't exist;
All I'm saying is how about we wait until there is actual danger before we start screaming bloody murder. And the only way that this beer bottle posses any real danger to witches is if, thought some form of witchcraft, the painting comes to life.
I seriously can't believe that you are pandering to their asinine complaints...
James McClure:
I'm quite sure that your youtube video is subject to copyright.
Are you saying that if the beer was distributed more evenly across many states that it would be more offensive? Or that because you can only be offended in 8 cities that the aggregate offensiveness is less? Or is it a combination of so few Wiccans times the small amount of exposure equals a tiny little bit of offensiveness. I'm just not sure how to add up the offensiveness of the offensive depiction. I forgot that the beer is only produced for a few months of the year. Which months can we say offensive things about Russians? How about Canadians? I'm looking forward to those.
You can still lampoon the idea that we once burned witches. What you can't do is use these traditional depictions to stir up images and stereotypes about what and who witches are. It would be like calling an invasion of the Middle East a Crusade, or a Holy War
Frank Leyland:
I'm saying that it is a piece of art on a beer bottle, not the "Common Sense" pamphlet or the "95 Theses". Relax.
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We are now arguing in circles, which can turn into pentagrams if we aren't careful.
ps. we still need a name for this so was can start a website...
James McClure:
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| Art for art's sake |
I think that once we figure out what this is, we'll have an easier time naming it. So far your suggestions (left on red and other rants, and across the line to grandmother's house we go) have been terrible.
Frank Leyland:
[I think we are done here. Solid work. It's your turn to pick a topic, I look forward to discussing something girly.]
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